PNC 2/6/13

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PNC Meeting Agenda

--- 2/6/2013 21:00h EDT ---
IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
Room: #pnc
Wiki: http://uspirates.org/wiki/PNC_2/6/13

Minutes

Record of the meeting

1 - ATTENDEES

1.1 - Members of the PNC

  • Attending
    • Zacqary Adam Green, New York
    • Joseph T. Klein, Wisconsin
    • Kyle DeVore, Oregon
    • Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts
    • Bradley Hall, Florida
  • Excused
    • none
  • Unexcused
    • Georgia
    • California
    • Washington
  • Probation
    • Oklahoma

1.2 - At-Large Members of the PNC

  • Nick Desalvio, Maryland

1.3 - Officers of the PNC

  • Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, Captain
  • Caleb Langeslag,MN, First Officer
  • Daniel Gorski, NY, Quartermaster

1.4 - Other Attendees

  • Morgan Thompson, Wisconsin
  • Stuart Gavin, Wisconsin
  • Steven Smith, Florida

2 - PROCEEDINGS

  • Meeting called to order at: 09:01 pm EST
  • Meeting chaired by Lindsay-Anne Brunner
  • Secretary for this meeting is Daniel Gorski
  • Quorum is established: 4 out of 8 Members present
  • Logging Enabled: Yes

3 - Review of previous minutes

http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_1/9/13

4 - REPORTS

4.1 - Short Report From Committees

IT Committee
  • Meeting to discuss Open Formats Standard and Pirate Party Website
    • Tuesday, February 12, 2013 at 9 pm EDT


5 - Agenda Items

  • Vote to remove Oklahoma from Probationary status to observer
    • Vote passed, 3 for, 1 against.
    • Effective immediately, Oklahoma is put on observer status.

- AOB -

  • PNC Bylaws revisions put forth for consideration

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B38EoA_8gSTeUW8xRUVGNHZNbzA/edit?usp=sharing

  • Possible asynchronous meeting discussed
  • Next meeting: February 20th at 9PM EST
  • Meeting closed: 10:34 pm EST

- Logs of the Meeting -

Feb 06 21:01:19 <kusanagi> Ok everyone, please state your full name and state.

Feb 06 21:01:29 <kusanagi> Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, Capt.

Feb 06 21:01:33 <Zacqary> Zacqary Adam Green, NY

Feb 06 21:01:39 <MrSquared> Kyle DeVore, Oregon

Feb 06 21:01:53 <Bosun> Joseph T. Klein Wisconsin

Feb 06 21:02:01 <itspara> Nick, Maryland Observer

Feb 06 21:02:06 <OyajiVyse> Daniel Gorski, NY, QM

Feb 06 21:02:08 <kusanagi> itspara, full name

Feb 06 21:02:20 <itspara> *nick desalvio

Feb 06 21:02:34 <itspara> Sorry about that captain

Feb 06 21:02:35 <CalebLangeslag> Caleb Langeslag, MN, First Officer

Feb 06 21:02:44 <ToArmsMHearties> my name be Morgan Thompson, and I be here from Wisconsin.

Feb 06 21:02:47 <ToArmsMHearties>  :D

Feb 06 21:03:09 <kusanagi> to clarify for the record, Bosun is the WI rep, correct?

Feb 06 21:03:26 * stubuntu (~stuartjam@65.29.rlr.yh) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 21:03:30 <Bosun> Always a spare cheesehead. Yes I am rep. official.

Feb 06 21:03:40 <stubuntu> more spare cheese

Feb 06 21:03:40 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 21:03:42 <kusanagi> awesome

Feb 06 21:03:43 <Zacqary> Just in case it's not cheesy enough

Feb 06 21:03:58 <kusanagi> stubuntu, identify for the record please

Feb 06 21:04:31 <kusanagi> and tonight's agenda is above. the reps: do you all agree to it?

Feb 06 21:04:44 <Zacqary> Yep

Feb 06 21:05:05 <Rush> Sure

Feb 06 21:05:15 <stubuntu> stuart gavin. wisconsin

Feb 06 21:05:16 <Bosun> ok

Feb 06 21:05:22 <CalebLangeslag> As well as the minutes?

Feb 06 21:05:25 <kusanagi> Rush, identify for the record

Feb 06 21:05:26 <CalebLangeslag> (of the last meeting)

Feb 06 21:05:36 <Bosun> see three cheeseheads

Feb 06 21:05:38 <kusanagi> was getting to that

Feb 06 21:06:52 <MrSquared> yep

Feb 06 21:07:37 <Rush> Bradley Hall, Florida, FLPP Chairman

Feb 06 21:08:14 <kusanagi> reps, do you agree with the minutes of the last meeting?

Feb 06 21:08:21 <Zacqary> Yep

Feb 06 21:08:28 <Bosun> Yep

Feb 06 21:08:30 <MrSquared> yes

Feb 06 21:08:38 <Rush> Yes

Feb 06 21:10:18 <kusanagi> awesome. so, let's kick this off.

Feb 06 21:10:37 <kusanagi> CalebLangeslag, IT committee report?

Feb 06 21:11:34 <CalebLangeslag> None. There shall be an IT committee meeting next week on Tuesday (9pm Eastern) regarding the discussion of an Open Formats Standard, as well as final website tweaks, to finally get the website done and released.

Feb 06 21:11:42 <CalebLangeslag> I'll send out an IT meeting notice within the hour

Feb 06 21:12:18 <CalebLangeslag> That is all

Feb 06 21:12:50 <kusanagi> Awesome. on to the agenda item

Feb 06 21:13:38 <kusanagi> I'm sure you all know that PPOK has been out of the PNC on probation for a while. I've tried to contact Marcus about this and have gotten no response.

Feb 06 21:14:30 <kusanagi> PPOK is long overdue for removal from probationary status to observer status

Feb 06 21:15:04 <kusanagi> Anyone like to make the motion to vote on removal/

Feb 06 21:15:11 <Bosun> so moved

Feb 06 21:15:52 <kusanagi> Seconds?

Feb 06 21:16:20 <kusanagi> ping Rush MrSquared Zacqary

Feb 06 21:16:29 <MrSquared> second

Feb 06 21:17:31 <OyajiVyse> all in favor?

Feb 06 21:17:35 <kusanagi> Vote now to remove the Pirate Party of Oklahoma from Probationary status to Observer status in the Pirate National Committee.

Feb 06 21:17:50 <kusanagi> Aye or Nay

Feb 06 21:18:09 <Bosun> aye

Feb 06 21:18:13 <Zacqary> aye

Feb 06 21:18:15 <MrSquared> aye

Feb 06 21:18:17 <Rush> nay

Feb 06 21:19:13 <kusanagi> Vote called.

Feb 06 21:19:23 <CalebLangeslag> The aye's have it

Feb 06 21:19:37 <CalebLangeslag> 3 for, 1 against

Feb 06 21:19:39 <kusanagi> Vote passed 3-1

Feb 06 21:20:46 <kusanagi> Ok, so PPOK is now observer status.

Feb 06 21:21:14 <kusanagi> Moving on to AOB.

Feb 06 21:21:46 * ToArmsMHearties coughs

Feb 06 21:21:57 <kusanagi> go ahead

Feb 06 21:22:44 <ToArmsMHearties> have you looked over my suggestions on reorganizing the Constitution (which are actually the same as bylaws, etc. etc.)

Feb 06 21:23:14 <kusanagi> I have, to some degree. Not as much as I'd like, as a few things have come up

Feb 06 21:23:25 <ToArmsMHearties> k

Feb 06 21:23:35 <CalebLangeslag> Do have a public link or anything?

Feb 06 21:23:43 <ToArmsMHearties> umm

Feb 06 21:23:47 <ToArmsMHearties> yeah. hang on

Feb 06 21:24:02 <ToArmsMHearties> it's in my Google Drive

Feb 06 21:24:36 <ToArmsMHearties> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B38EoA_8gSTeUW8xRUVGNHZNbzA/edit?usp=sharing

Feb 06 21:24:41 <CalebLangeslag> If it's plaintext, you can always just paste it to piratenpad.de

Feb 06 21:24:52 <ToArmsMHearties> it's uhh... not.

Feb 06 21:25:01 <narrenburg> It's LibreOffice.

Feb 06 21:25:03 <narrenburg> I remember.

Feb 06 21:25:06 <narrenburg> [Sorry for speaking.]

Feb 06 21:25:13 <ToArmsMHearties> right.

Feb 06 21:25:37 <kusanagi> narrenburg, please identify for the record

Feb 06 21:25:49 <narrenburg> Steven Smith, FL, youth member

Feb 06 21:26:10 <CalebLangeslag> I can reshare it as a PDF if desired.

Feb 06 21:26:27 <kusanagi> that probably would be best

Feb 06 21:26:30 <ToArmsMHearties> so can I...

Feb 06 21:26:32 <ToArmsMHearties>  ;)

Feb 06 21:26:48 <ToArmsMHearties> it's fine. I'm just a bit ADD at the moment.

Feb 06 21:27:09 <kusanagi> it's fine, also open floor

Feb 06 21:27:46 <ToArmsMHearties> I have it as a Google Doc, too, but the formatting didn't all take.

Feb 06 21:30:34 * missle59 (~androirc@70.57.oqu.zp) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 21:30:36 <ToArmsMHearties> I did notice also the text " At least two delegates from each State Pirate Party which meets the qualifications set forth in Art. III §2, hereinafter referred to as Representatives. A State which sends Representatives to the PNC shall be considered a Member State with Representation in the PNC for the purposes of this document.

Feb 06 21:30:48 <ToArmsMHearties> which apparently suddenly appeared

Feb 06 21:31:04 <kusanagi> That is incorrect, only 1 was supposed to be written in there

Feb 06 21:31:12 <kusanagi> also, piratenpad just crashed

Feb 06 21:31:12 <CalebLangeslag> PDF: http://uspirates.org/Pirate_Constitution_annotated.pdf

Feb 06 21:31:14 <ToArmsMHearties> according to kusanagi, with whom I've been... yeah.

Feb 06 21:31:43 <ToArmsMHearties> beat me to it.

Feb 06 21:31:57 <CalebLangeslag> The power of SSH!

Feb 06 21:32:03 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 21:32:19 <ToArmsMHearties> THE POWER OF OPENSSH COMPELS YOU

Feb 06 21:32:21 <ToArmsMHearties> sorry

Feb 06 21:32:33 <Rush> I ssh'd into a coffee maker once

Feb 06 21:32:43 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 21:33:01 <Bosun> Was it running NetBSD?

Feb 06 21:33:55 <CalebLangeslag> If Mozilla would implement HTCPCP, then I could be accessing my coffee pot from a web browser https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46647

Feb 06 21:33:56 <ToArmsMHearties> anyway, my changes reorganize the document to a standard format, and the only real addition is the citation of a parliamentary reference. Also, I changed the name from Constitution to Bylaws, since the terms (legally speaking) are interchangeable.

Feb 06 21:34:45 <ToArmsMHearties> what you have as "bylaws" are more appropriately called Special Rules of Order.

Feb 06 21:35:20 <ToArmsMHearties> and what that means is they supersede RONR where they have force.

Feb 06 21:35:43 <ToArmsMHearties> but are beneath the level of the bylaws.

Feb 06 21:36:26 * kusanagi nods

Feb 06 21:37:14 * ToArmsMHearties was a card-carrying member of the National Association of Parliamentarians from 2006-10

Feb 06 21:38:03 <ToArmsMHearties> I really need to get back in to that, but it's something for when I have more time.

Feb 06 21:38:46 <ToArmsMHearties> they went and published a new version on me, too. :P

Feb 06 21:39:02 <kusanagi> Just when you had your back turned

Feb 06 21:39:08 <ToArmsMHearties> lol yep

Feb 06 21:39:46 <kusanagi> I was thinking of working on going through everything with the old constitution on Sunday, at about 9pm

Feb 06 21:40:01 <kusanagi> Or maybe Monday, same time

Feb 06 21:40:22 <ToArmsMHearties> my classes start on Monday (but thankfully, they're online)

Feb 06 21:40:33 * Bosun (~Bosun@pzed-90-35-978-39.west.biz.rr.com) has left #pnc (Leaving)

Feb 06 21:40:49 <kusanagi> stubuntu, you're the alternate, right/

Feb 06 21:41:14 * Bosun (~Bosun@pzed-90-35-978-39.west.biz.rr.com) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 21:41:24 <kusanagi> or not, lol

Feb 06 21:41:27 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 21:41:30 * kusanagi gives voice to Bosun

Feb 06 21:41:40 <ToArmsMHearties> Bosun, did your brain asplode?

Feb 06 21:41:54 <kusanagi> I'll send something out on SAB about it when the meeting concludes.

Feb 06 21:42:04 <Bosun> No ? just a little steam leak.

Feb 06 21:42:08 <kusanagi> You all are getting the SAB emails, correct?

Feb 06 21:42:17 <ToArmsMHearties> am I?

Feb 06 21:42:19 <ToArmsMHearties> I dunno

Feb 06 21:42:20 <narrenburg> Well, I don't think I should.

Feb 06 21:42:47 <Bosun> It is public and ransparent.

Feb 06 21:42:50 <kusanagi> If you would like, I can grab the signup link

Feb 06 21:43:08 <Bosun> transparent ? bu somtimes ran-parent

Feb 06 21:44:04 <ToArmsMHearties> SAB? Student Activities Board? :P

Feb 06 21:44:10 <narrenburg> State Advisory.

Feb 06 21:44:13 <narrenburg> Board.

Feb 06 21:44:35 <ToArmsMHearties> I was kidding.

Feb 06 21:44:36 <ToArmsMHearties>  :P

Feb 06 21:44:40 <narrenburg> Ogh.

Feb 06 21:44:49 <ToArmsMHearties>  ;)

Feb 06 21:45:13 <ToArmsMHearties> again, it's been a VERY long day and I'm being TOTALLY Ay-Day-Day right now.

Feb 06 21:46:29 <kusanagi> http://sab.uspirates.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sab

Feb 06 21:46:36 <kusanagi> took me a bit, vut i found it

Feb 06 21:47:02 <ToArmsMHearties> vut are jou sayink, kusanagi? :D

Feb 06 21:47:26 <kusanagi> my fingers are going bad on me

Feb 06 21:47:28 <kusanagi>  :(

Feb 06 21:47:31 <ToArmsMHearties>  :(

Feb 06 21:47:35 <ToArmsMHearties> that's not good

Feb 06 21:47:48 <kusanagi> nah

Feb 06 21:47:57 <kusanagi> it's all-right though, i'll deal

Feb 06 21:48:26 <kusanagi> Anyone have anything else to discuss?

Feb 06 21:48:47 <Zacqary> Yeah, um...are we really going to codify RONR in the bylaws?

Feb 06 21:49:01 <Zacqary> Given the fact that we're exploring doing meeting asynchronously?

Feb 06 21:49:06 <Bosun> As I posted on SAB ? Wisconsin incorporated as a coop

Feb 06 21:49:15 <stubuntu> woohoo!

Feb 06 21:49:25 <kusanagi> Zacqary, it can be amended out

Feb 06 21:49:30 <ToArmsMHearties> Zacqary: you can make a special rule of order.

Feb 06 21:50:17 <Zacqary> Well, yeah, we can make special rules, but it seems like we'd be superseding almost all of them.

Feb 06 21:50:28 <ToArmsMHearties> nah

Feb 06 21:50:45 <Zacqary> Are you familiar with the Mutiny project?

Feb 06 21:50:47 <ToArmsMHearties> all you need are a few tweaks and it works fine.

Feb 06 21:50:52 <ToArmsMHearties> wat

Feb 06 21:51:10 <Zacqary> It's the asynchronous meeting system we're, um, supposed to be working on.

Feb 06 21:51:23 <Zacqary> Let me see if I can find where I described it...

Feb 06 21:51:25 <ToArmsMHearties> oic

Feb 06 21:51:51 <ToArmsMHearties> there. now I'm on the SAB list

Feb 06 21:52:03 <Zacqary> Second post in this thread: http://pirate-party.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10

Feb 06 21:53:24 <Zacqary> Applying RONR to that might be like building a sandcastle with a bulldozer.

Feb 06 21:53:42 <kusanagi> I don't think RONR could be applied to it

Feb 06 21:53:51 <ToArmsMHearties> you know, you could just use a teamspeex server.

Feb 06 21:53:53 <ToArmsMHearties>  :P

Feb 06 21:54:07 <ToArmsMHearties> or skype.

Feb 06 21:54:08 <Zacqary> That's even LESS asynchronous than IRC.

Feb 06 21:54:24 <kusanagi> real-time meetings could use ronr, but async? no

Feb 06 21:54:31 <ToArmsMHearties> why so asynchronous?

Feb 06 21:54:37 <kusanagi> it would drive us all crazy

Feb 06 21:55:02 <ToArmsMHearties> no, I mean Y U RECREATE WHEEL?!?!

Feb 06 21:55:06 <Zacqary> Because barely anyone's coming to the real-time ones.

Feb 06 21:55:14 <Zacqary> It's not very convenient.

Feb 06 21:55:15 <CalebLangeslag> Isn't the problem with the German Pirate Party that they're completely async and just bringing up conflicting votes that both pass, and other various uncertainties or disputes; that nothing gets done?

Feb 06 21:55:21 <Zacqary> I've had to miss a ton of them.

Feb 06 21:55:29 <CalebLangeslag> But I could certainly be wrong

Feb 06 21:55:45 <ToArmsMHearties> yeah, I don't like the idea of an asynchronous meeting.

Feb 06 21:55:53 <kusanagi> ToArmsMHearties, that's really up to the reps

Feb 06 21:55:57 <ToArmsMHearties> yeah I know

Feb 06 21:56:11 <ToArmsMHearties> but I'm just giving you my opinion as the resident expert.

Feb 06 21:56:11 <kusanagi> and it would be heaps easier, really

Feb 06 21:56:12 <Bosun> We just need to intimidate the others in showing up.

Feb 06 21:56:18 <Zacqary> Isn't the problem with the United States Pirate Party that we just have a bunch of meetings for very little reason and nothing gets done?

Feb 06 21:56:33 <Bosun> We have less now.

Feb 06 21:56:37 <kusanagi> Zacqary, that was part of the problem

Feb 06 21:56:57 <kusanagi> Meetings have been reduced, and things are moving

Feb 06 21:57:53 <Zacqary> Well, tonight for example. What has been achieved that could not have been achieved asynchronously?

Feb 06 21:58:02 <narrenburg> Um...

Feb 06 21:58:59 <Bosun> We have plenty of cheeseheads. We can takover another state. :-p

Feb 06 21:59:05 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 21:59:10 <narrenburg> [A Time for Tony]

Feb 06 21:59:31 <ToArmsMHearties> give her a broadside, Mr. Ubuntu!

Feb 06 21:59:32 <ToArmsMHearties>  :D

Feb 06 22:00:33 <Bosun> pst ? your queue stu

Feb 06 22:00:56 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 22:01:21 <kusanagi> Zacqary, you're right. We still don't have the platform up

Feb 06 22:01:43 <CalebLangeslag> Put together a proposal of a fair legally-tested approach of conducting asynchronous meetings

Feb 06 22:02:24 <Zacqary> A legally-tested approach?

Feb 06 22:02:26 <stubuntu> huh?

Feb 06 22:03:31 <CalebLangeslag> It's what RONR is; which provides a tested system of fairly conducting business

Feb 06 22:03:58 <Bosun> The invented wheel.

Feb 06 22:04:21 <Zacqary> Well, I have a proposal. It's not yet tested. So I'm gonna implement it. Then whoever wants to start using it can use it. And if it works, it works.

Feb 06 22:05:07 <CalebLangeslag> Is it written anywhere publicly accessible?

Feb 06 22:05:24 <Zacqary> I just copypasted it a few minutes ago

Feb 06 22:05:35 <Zacqary> Second post in this thread describes it: http://pirate-party.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10

Feb 06 22:05:48 <CalebLangeslag> Sorry for missing that

Feb 06 22:06:22 <Zacqary> kusanagi's already a supporter of it, and I think she's been pseudocoding it for the past week

Feb 06 22:06:25 <CalebLangeslag> Isn't Google Wave what you describe?

Feb 06 22:06:43 <CalebLangeslag> Because we could trial the idea of hosting an install

Feb 06 22:06:44 * missle59 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)

Feb 06 22:06:54 * missle59 (~androirc@70.57.oqu.zp) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 22:07:01 <CalebLangeslag> (just based upon the first 2 paragraphs, still reading)

Feb 06 22:07:08 <ToArmsMHearties> that doesn't address the issue of legal muster.

Feb 06 22:07:17 <CalebLangeslag> Correct

Feb 06 22:07:25 <Zacqary> Legal muster? We're pirates.

Feb 06 22:07:33 <CalebLangeslag> Legal pirates. :P

Feb 06 22:07:49 <CalebLangeslag> At least some of us. xP

Feb 06 22:07:52 <ToArmsMHearties> RONR is widely accepted and understood.

Feb 06 22:08:09 <Zacqary> So was phrenology.

Feb 06 22:08:24 <ToArmsMHearties> that's not a fair comparison

Feb 06 22:08:25 <CalebLangeslag> There of course could be provisions added, which may take time to form

Feb 06 22:09:04 <ToArmsMHearties> in a COURT OF LAW, RONR is widely accepted and understood. So if someone sues you, there's legal backup.

Feb 06 22:09:12 <Zacqary> ...so?

Feb 06 22:09:24 * ToArmsMHearties facepalms

Feb 06 22:09:27 <Zacqary> How does this apply to a bunch of activists deciding what to do?

Feb 06 22:10:00 <kusanagi> We're not activists.

Feb 06 22:10:02 <kusanagi> we're

Feb 06 22:10:09 <kusanagi> we're becoming politicians

Feb 06 22:10:32 <missle59> activist politicians?

Feb 06 22:10:48 <kusanagi> the pnc is becoming a legal entity

Feb 06 22:11:05 <kusanagi> and if something happens, the pnc (and officers) could be held legally liable.

Feb 06 22:11:11 <ToArmsMHearties> have you seen what damage can be done in a court of law if they decide you did something to unfairly deny the rights of a member?

Feb 06 22:11:14 <Zacqary> When is it becoming a legal entity?

Feb 06 22:11:18 <ToArmsMHearties> EXACTLY.

Feb 06 22:11:26 <kusanagi> enroute

Feb 06 22:11:26 <Bosun> At some point someone will sue our asses.

Feb 06 22:11:35 <ToArmsMHearties> the officers could be held PERSONALLY liable.

Feb 06 22:11:48 <kusanagi> we need to correct the bylaws, then i can finish npo paperwork

Feb 06 22:11:53 <itspara> Kindof activist politicians.. though the greens are more of that

Feb 06 22:12:02 <itspara> Imo

Feb 06 22:12:20 <ToArmsMHearties> you really don't want to screw around with that.

Feb 06 22:12:20 <Zacqary> Why do we need to become an NPO at this stage?

Feb 06 22:12:31 <ToArmsMHearties> (not having legal backup like RONR, that is)

Feb 06 22:12:45 <itspara> Cause reasons

Feb 06 22:12:57 <kusanagi> because we're (both USPP and NYPP) need to control its assets

Feb 06 22:13:00 * mildbeard (~erik@hknv-28-026-620-99.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 22:13:15 <Zacqary> These assets being?

Feb 06 22:13:25 <kusanagi> the website, for one

Feb 06 22:13:26 <ToArmsMHearties> oh jeez, mildbeard came in. everybody hush.

Feb 06 22:13:30 <ToArmsMHearties>  ;)

Feb 06 22:13:41 <CalebLangeslag> Money, servers, domains, website, etc

Feb 06 22:13:46 <ToArmsMHearties> yup

Feb 06 22:14:01 <itspara> Yeah

Feb 06 22:14:02 <ToArmsMHearties> gotta cover your assets.

Feb 06 22:14:10 <CalebLangeslag> At some point we'll also provide hosting and other services for emerging states, to facilitate the growth of the state parties

Feb 06 22:14:22 <kusanagi> In fact, PA already asked for that.

Feb 06 22:14:22 <Bosun> Contracts are made between legal entities.

Feb 06 22:14:31 <itspara> Plus pnc cant get any money without becoming shiny official and jumping through hoops

Feb 06 22:14:36 <mildbeard> sorry to be so late

Feb 06 22:14:46 <ToArmsMHearties> yeah, and the moment USPP makes a decision that a state party doesn't like, you can bet there will be a lawsuit.

Feb 06 22:14:53 <kusanagi> mildbeard, id for the record

Feb 06 22:14:54 <ToArmsMHearties> sooner or later.

Feb 06 22:15:03 * kusanagi gives voice to mildbeard

Feb 06 22:15:05 <mildbeard> Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts

Feb 06 22:16:27 <ToArmsMHearties> http://dl.openhandhelds.org/wiz/screenshots/zoltan.gif

Feb 06 22:16:45 <Bosun> Visions of Pirate Lawyer.

Feb 06 22:16:48 <ToArmsMHearties>  :>

Feb 06 22:17:08 <Zacqary> So you're saying we've grown so large at this point that we cannot continue to grow without legally incorporating, thus giving us a whole TON of red tape to worry about?

Feb 06 22:17:11 <mildbeard> lmao

Feb 06 22:17:51 <kusanagi> red tape will be handled

Feb 06 22:18:07 <kusanagi> and to be honest, i'm fucking sick of not having access to USPP things

Feb 06 22:18:25 <kusanagi> i don't have a USPP email address, nor access to the former IT mailing address

Feb 06 22:18:37 <CalebLangeslag> We /still/ have no direct control over pirate-party.us even

Feb 06 22:18:54 <CalebLangeslag> I have to contact a person for the changes to even be made

Feb 06 22:18:55 <Zacqary> So basically you want to incorporate so that you can sue for the domains?

Feb 06 22:18:56 <kusanagi> i want USPP to own its shit, not handled by someone who's not available in WA

Feb 06 22:18:56 <ToArmsMHearties>  :D

Feb 06 22:19:12 <kusanagi> including funds

Feb 06 22:19:12 * ToArmsMHearties agrees with kusanagi

Feb 06 22:19:14 <Bosun> Without a legal entity anyone who controls an asset can just take his/her ball home.

Feb 06 22:19:21 <kusanagi> \yes, Bosun

Feb 06 22:19:24 <CalebLangeslag> I don't think we'd be able to sue from incorporating AFTER the domain was already registered

Feb 06 22:19:27 * ToArmsMHearties agrees with Bosun

Feb 06 22:19:33 <kusanagi> And that has happened before

Feb 06 22:19:50 <ToArmsMHearties> I've seen it happen in county democratic parties.

Feb 06 22:19:58 <CalebLangeslag> We have uspirates.org which we do control; but pirate-party.us is an example of not having a legal structure to asset management

Feb 06 22:20:31 <Zacqary> And so legally incorporating is going to magically make everyone start cooperating and working together when they weren't before? Because if we can't get our shit together and be productive without a legal structure, are we really ready to handle having one at all?

Feb 06 22:20:59 <ToArmsMHearties> uhhhh

Feb 06 22:21:13 <ToArmsMHearties> society is BASED on a complex legal structure.

Feb 06 22:21:20 <narrenburg> The fact that we can't handle our stuff is somewhat irrelevant.

Feb 06 22:21:23 <Bosun> It is not a magic bullet, just a practical and real way to operate an organization.

Feb 06 22:21:27 <Zacqary> And that's working out great, isn't it?

Feb 06 22:21:35 <mildbeard> I think if USPP becomes a legally registered entity, we need a firm policy that we encourage members to obey the existing laws (e.g. monopoly copyright) even as we fight vigorously to change those unjust laws.

Feb 06 22:21:36 <narrenburg> No matter what happens, to move on, we have to become more legal.

Feb 06 22:21:45 <ToArmsMHearties> democracy is the worst kind of goverment. except for all the other ones.

Feb 06 22:21:46 <stubuntu> it also allows us to put things in the name of the part instead of its officers

Feb 06 22:21:54 <kusanagi> mildbeard, without a doubt.

Feb 06 22:22:28 <ToArmsMHearties> (yeah I just quoted Winston Churchill. deal with it)

Feb 06 22:22:28 <mildbeard> kusanagi, I'd want to consider voting it into the constitution.

Feb 06 22:23:06 <Bosun> I had to chain stubuntu to a chair to get him to sighn our corporate charter.

Feb 06 22:23:18 <Bosun> (not really)

Feb 06 22:23:20 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 22:23:25 <kusanagi> mildbeard, since the constitution is in the state of.. duress it's in, would that be feasible to wait?

Feb 06 22:23:31 <ToArmsMHearties> I would've signed it! :P

Feb 06 22:23:38 <ToArmsMHearties> I was in Milwaukee today, too.

Feb 06 22:23:50 <mildbeard> I don't know of any problem in the constitution, but it's not urgent until we incorporate.

Feb 06 22:24:00 <Bosun> Tis filed with the state.

Feb 06 22:24:28 <ToArmsMHearties> mildbeard: can't incorporate without the bylaws in place.

Feb 06 22:24:43 <Bosun> Nonsense.

Feb 06 22:24:44 <ToArmsMHearties> (as I explained earlier, constitution and bylaws are legally the same thing)

Feb 06 22:24:47 <mildbeard> bylaws are a disaster.

Feb 06 22:25:05 <Bosun> You just need the basic articles of incorporation.

Feb 06 22:25:07 <Zacqary> So is the PNC. None of us even agree what the hell this thing is or what it's for. And we're going to incorporate?

Feb 06 22:25:19 <narrenburg> Mildbeard, do you have Mr. Thompson's constitution edit?

Feb 06 22:25:23 <mildbeard> ToArmsMHearties, we have a separate bylaws and constitution. They have a distinct meaning.

Feb 06 22:25:32 <mildbeard> narrenburg, no

Feb 06 22:25:35 <ToArmsMHearties> uhhh, no, they don't

Feb 06 22:25:43 <narrenburg> May I PM to you?

Feb 06 22:25:46 <mildbeard> sure

Feb 06 22:26:03 <kusanagi> mildbeard, the constitution is bad too. ToArmsMHearties went over both with me

Feb 06 22:26:14 <ToArmsMHearties> apparently you missed the part where I mentioned I was a card-carrying member of the National Association of Parliamentarians for 4 years.

Feb 06 22:26:24 <kusanagi> he just logged in

Feb 06 22:26:37 <ToArmsMHearties> oh yeah

Feb 06 22:26:38 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 22:26:40 <ToArmsMHearties> sorry

Feb 06 22:26:55 <ToArmsMHearties> guess this is the time to mention all that, then. :P

Feb 06 22:27:11 <kusanagi> Zacqary, by agreeing to the constitution, however broken it is, the state parties agreed that this was the organizing and governing body of the mpnc.

Feb 06 22:27:16 <kusanagi> pnc, even

Feb 06 22:27:42 <kusanagi> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/Pirate_National_Committee_(PNC)/Constitution#Section_1:_Purpose

Feb 06 22:27:44 <Bosun> We can fix it.

Feb 06 22:28:01 <Bosun> Agile party development.

Feb 06 22:28:07 <kusanagi> EXACTLY

Feb 06 22:28:09 <ToArmsMHearties> we have the technology

Feb 06 22:28:25 <Zacqary> And incorporating will make us SO more agile.

Feb 06 22:28:26 <ToArmsMHearties> better, stronger, faster

Feb 06 22:28:34 <Bosun> No cyborgs though.

Feb 06 22:28:41 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 22:28:46 <Zacqary> We'll be SO flexible and able to adapt SO quickly with everything set in fucking legal stone.

Feb 06 22:28:51 <kusanagi> you know kusanagi is the name of a cyborg

Feb 06 22:28:53 <ToArmsMHearties> glad SOMEONE got the reference. I was starting to feel old

Feb 06 22:29:01 <kusanagi> >.>

Feb 06 22:29:16 <kusanagi> Zacqary, we just need to be in compliance

Feb 06 22:29:21 <Zacqary> With what?

Feb 06 22:29:28 <kusanagi> with the legal parts

Feb 06 22:29:33 <kusanagi> we can adapt with it

Feb 06 22:29:39 <ToArmsMHearties> Zacqary: we'll be a great party if someone sues the pants off of us and drains all of our resources.

Feb 06 22:29:54 <mildbeard> I am OK with some of the reforms I've seen to the current constitution if they make it legally stronger. I haven't seen a reform that changes the underlying purpose of the document so I'm OK with it.

Feb 06 22:30:14 <Bosun> Zacqary is a rebel and incorporation is establishment.

Feb 06 22:30:24 <Zacqary> Oh fuck off.

Feb 06 22:30:30 <kusanagi> mildbeard, we're going to go over everything on either sunday or monday to clean up and make the required changes

Feb 06 22:30:32 <CalebLangeslag> You know, the law, campaign finance law, since politics is serious business and competition is going to do everything to shoot you down legally

Feb 06 22:30:45 <ToArmsMHearties> can't do that right now, Zacqary. my DP is at work.

Feb 06 22:30:48 <mildbeard> that's fine but the PNC has to vote on any changes.

Feb 06 22:30:54 <kusanagi> mildbeard, yes

Feb 06 22:31:23 <mildbeard> ok np

Feb 06 22:31:25 * Zacqary has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 18.0.1/20130116073211])

Feb 06 22:31:33 <mildbeard> brb

Feb 06 22:31:44 <MrSquared> i g2g guys

Feb 06 22:31:53 <kusanagi> MrSquared, wait

Feb 06 22:31:57 <MrSquared> ok

Feb 06 22:31:58 <Bosun> I did not mean to piss him off. :-(

Feb 06 22:32:09 <kusanagi> we can continue this in post-meeting. want to call it, guys?

Feb 06 22:32:15 <kusanagi> Bosun, it's fine, i'll speak with him

Feb 06 22:32:26 <Bosun> move adjourn

Feb 06 22:32:32 <ToArmsMHearties> he was being confrontational about it. I just reflected his attitude.

Feb 06 22:32:55 <kusanagi> there's been a move to adjourn

Feb 06 22:32:59 <kusanagi> any seconds

Feb 06 22:33:01 <mildbeard> back

Feb 06 22:33:06 <MrSquared> second

Feb 06 22:33:19 <ToArmsMHearties> though it was kinda lulzworthy to see him ragequit... sorry, the anon in me.

Feb 06 22:33:26 <kusanagi> ok, vote to adjourn. we can continue the discussion postmeeting

Feb 06 22:33:35 <Bosun> aye

Feb 06 22:33:38 * HariSeldon (webchat@56-54-210-158.static.mdsn.wi.charter.com) has joined #pnc

Feb 06 22:33:41 <MrSquared> aye

Feb 06 22:33:42 <kusanagi> ToArmsMHearties, for you, maybe. that's my state's rep

Feb 06 22:33:44 <mildbeard> aye

Feb 06 22:33:50 <Bosun> another cheesehead

Feb 06 22:33:54 <ToArmsMHearties> lol

Feb 06 22:34:01 <ToArmsMHearties> we could have our own pnc meeting :P

Feb 06 22:34:02 <HariSeldon> ARR!!!

Feb 06 22:34:32 <Bosun> we be adjourned

Feb 06 22:34:34 <ToArmsMHearties> kusanagi: I know

Feb 06 22:34:37 <HariSeldon> what have I missed?

Feb 06 22:34:43 <kusanagi> the meeting

Feb 06 22:34:43 <kusanagi> lol

Feb 06 22:34:45 <kusanagi> Rush,

Feb 06 22:34:49 <stubuntu> haha

Feb 06 22:34:50 <HariSeldon> well, I know that

Feb 06 22:34:52 <Bosun> Tell us about the ACLU meeting

Feb 06 22:34:54 <OyajiVyse> meeting adjourned, thank you all for showing up